A conversation with Dexter John

Andrew McDougall: I’m Andrew McDougall, a partner in Osler’s Corporate Group and a co-author of the annual Diversity Disclosure Practices report. I’m pleased to welcome Dexter John. Dex is the chief executive officer of Sodali and Co Canada, and prior to Sodali and Co’s acquisition of Gryphon Advisors, Inc., he was the president and CEO of Gryphon, where he was responsible for the North American business and led a team of experienced governance and financial professionals. Dex holds an ICD.D designation and is currently a director of Organigram Inc., the Financial Regulatory Authority of Ontario, and Can PR. Previously, he served as chair of the Board of Partners Real Estate Investment Trust. Dex, thank you very much for joining me here today.

Dexter John: Thank you, Andrew. It’s my pleasure.

Andrew McDougall: So, let’s jump right into the first question I have for you. As you know, there’s been a strong focus on diversity for many years now. And over the last ten years, there’s been a slow but steady increase year over year in the proportion of women directors and, more recently, we’ve seen a similar trend emerging with respect to visible minority directors. However, diversity, equity and inclusion programs have been facing challenges in the U.S., with some retrenchment among U.S. companies. So, do you think the move towards more diverse boards will lose steam as a result of this pushback in the United States?

Dexter John: Thank you, Andrew. Yes, I do believe it will lose some steam. I think it’s losing steam now. It’s been a while. I mean, look, everything started happening back in 2010 when the market crashed and things were developing there in terms of gender diversity on boards. And as your report stated that we weren’t even getting it to 30%, and I believe you will probably say the same for this year.

Having said that, since 2020, after the George Floyd incident, when things are starting to develop and everyone’s pushing for a little bit more diversity beyond gender, looking at visible minorities, the noise and the buildup was great, but we are who we are as a collective, as a community, and if nothing’s in the forefront, we always revert back to the mean. And I think that’s what we’re seeing here slowly, that things are moving slowly. And I’m sad to say, I am not holding up hope that we’re going to see that same level of enthusiasm as we saw in 2020 and 2021.

Andrew McDougall: So, would you describe it as more of catching our breath after making some progress for an extended period of time? Or do you think this is more of an indication of something that’s more of a longer-term trend?

Dexter John: A little bit of both, to be honest with you. I think it’s a bit of a catching your breath, focusing just on boards and not the greater issues at hand here. I think that we have an environment where, in the U.S. in particular, where there is that pushback, and I think that’s more based on the politics that are there.

But the issue we’re having here, and it’s sad to say, is that — and as you know, I advise boards — I’m tired of hearing, “We can’t find enough qualified people,” or those stories when — as you and I both know, being on Bay Street — there’s tons of qualified people or they don’t have enough experience. To which I say, not one of us, when we’ve got our first board, had experience. So therefore, that is not a legitimate excuse either. But it’s easy to say that. So, I think we need to keep it first and foremost in everyone’s mind and keep pushing for it. But I do believe it’s a bit of a pause, I think might be some cyclical ups and downs, but as I said, I was hoping for better.

Andrew McDougall: Well, thank you. Here’s hoping for better as well. I think we’ve done quite well so far. We still have further road to go in order to get up to representation that’s equivalent to the demographics of Canada, let alone the demographics of North America. So, we’ll see there. So, if we’re going to make progress, then do you think setting targets is one of the right drivers to be able to make progress?

Dexter John: That’s a great question. It’s funny, if you’d asked me this question ten years ago, I’d be like, no, I don’t believe in targets. I think they devalue people and or make folks feel uncomfortable in rooms because you’re not sure what others think, why you’re there. Having said that, now I am totally for it because as your report will state, we still haven’t hit those numbers. We still haven’t gotten where we want to be. And we have targets, the targets for gender diversity — in particular, women, 30%, I believe we’re just short of that. But it’s been 12 years of pushing for this and we still aren’t there. In the corporate world, yes, you might be seeing a little bit better in terms of numbers, but I still think that’s probably skewed because of the banks and the large organizations that that works better for them because they have a bigger pool.

In terms of the visible minorities, I think we still need to push for that. But I’m going to be very careful how I say this is that I find, again, the job that I do, I find a lot of boards somewhat trying to game the system, but as opposed to finding a visible minority that is not a female, they can tick two boxes with one by getting a visible minority that’s female. So, it’s serving its purpose in terms of gender, and that’s great, but it’s not really serving its purpose, I would say, in terms of the greater good of what we’re trying to get — as you said, a board that represents the population of Canada.

Andrew McDougall: You know, it’s interesting. We’ve had the 30% target. Catalyst Canada has been a proponent of it, the 30% Club was the biggest proponent of it. And we’ve actually gotten there in terms of the representation of women over time. We haven’t really had a similar type of target focused on visible minorities or the other diverse groups, like, for example, the U.K. They had a big drive on “One by ’21”: one racially or ethnically diverse director on every large company board by 2021, and they’ve now achieved that level of representation. But it’s hard to say that they would have ever gotten to that level without actually setting a target and driving towards it. And so, we haven’t seen a target at the visible minority level. But your thought is that we probably need to start thinking that way.

Dexter John: Absolutely. I think we do.

Andrew McDougall: Fantastic. Well, listen, I very much enjoyed speaking with you here today, Dex.

Dexter John: And I greatly appreciate the opportunity to speak. And thank you very much for thinking of me.